Codex: Lost and The Damned 1.85 (UPDATED WITH 1.9!)

chaos_symbol

Here it is, fresh off the digital press:

Codex Lost and the Damned 1.85

It turns out there was a lot of cleanup to do! I made numerous minor changes, and incorporated the feedback from this thread: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?s=a93d6bdf6f63fad70f28df1f914a121a&t=1184

I haven’t added suicide bombers yet but they are coming.

I did add rabble as a unit to replace conscripts.

 

UPDATE: There’s a great deal of quality feedback and discussion going on in the comments, so that’s where the design notes for 1.9 are going to be this time around.

Below is the latest and greatest, a provisional version of 1.9. I have to do some tinkering and finish adding units before I fell up to making a brand new blog post.

Codex Lost and The Damned 1-9

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About chaosgerbil

I'm an artist and hobbyist.
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34 Responses to Codex: Lost and The Damned 1.85 (UPDATED WITH 1.9!)

  1. ss_basham says:

    Only problem I can really see is that you have to own three codexes to use this. Why have summoned daemons available at all when you have real daemons? 20 mutants seem a little much for a minimum size. I like it.

  2. chaosgerbil says:

    Thanks for the comment!

    I would put individual allied units in the list but I don’t want to infringe on Games Workshop’s IP. You can run the LATD without any of the allied codexes, or just use whatever one you have.

    I thought some players might prefer having the generic daemons as an option, to represent undivided daemons for example. They can assault the turn they are summoned which makes me wonder if I should take them out, preventing inconsistency.

    20 mutants is a bit too high, i will definitely be revisiting the mutant entry in the next version.

  3. BoBliness says:

    Nice work.

    I’d be interested to see it in practice.
    On paper the option for six chaos marines as upgrades each with a meltagun and powerfist in a guardsman squad seems….unpleasant.

    What rules are you using for rage? How did you see it interacting with troop transports?

    Speaking of troop transports, did you see the addicts, mutants etc being transportable or not? If so, who can buy a transport and what transports?

    10 addicts with two power fists and a marine with a powerfist and an extra attack is a lot of power fists in a pretty cheap unit lol.

    The addicts in general look pretty nasty for 8 points a head, would have to see.

  4. chaosgerbil says:

    It’s good to get feedback on the addicts, as they are a brand new entry. Rage is in the main rulebook, page 76. it mentions: “Whilst falling back, embarked on a transport, or if no enemy is visible they ignore this rule.” As far as I understand it any unit including vehicles can count as the closest unit that they go after. I originally had the addicts at 9 points a head but when I considered rage and ork boyz being only 6 points I dropped them to 8. They can be shot up without too much problem if not in a transport. Perhaps I should take out the two weapon upgrade options, but for a point of reference, you can take whatever special weapons you want in a Wolf Guard squad.

    Right now the traitor truck is the only transport option outside of taking the allowed options direct from their parent codexes (i.e. veterans in chimeras, CSM in rhinos.) These are not dedicated so any unit small enough may start the game in one. I do not envision the lost and the damned being a mech heavy force, although you can go that route by taking certain available options. I may open up chimeras and rhinos as individual options for fast attack.

    I’m considering dropping the mutant squad size to 10, and possibly include some advantages for larger squads.

  5. I think the Aspiring Champions are a great idea and are a good way to reflect the idea of Chaos Space Marines using an army of cultists and traitors to acheive the goals of their dark masters. The mutant squads do seem kind of strange as they are only available at a 20 man minimum. The addicts are nasty and I think they would be the assault unit to watch out for in this army, but would need a transport to be viable. Keep up the good work as I plan to use the models I have available to field a force to playtest this soon. I am thinking of a squad of Aspiring Champs broken into a few traitor and addict squads, along with a Plague Master and Plague Bearers for extra scoring and possibly a Great Unclean one used through the aspiring champs to give it the chance of popping up nearly anywhere I want it too. My question is because it comes in via possession, would the GUO get to assault the same turn per the Greater Daemon rules set forth in the CSM codex or would it be sitting there as per the Daenomic Assault idea of C: Daemons?

  6. chaosgerbil says:

    OSD, you got me. I totally forgot to address that and this is a tricky issue. I’ll have to give this some thought. I am leaning towards allowing all daemons who enter via possession to assault the turn they come in, along with summoned lesser daemons. Other summoned daemons will have to deepstrike as normal and not assault.

    Maybe the key here is to find a creative solution. Perhaps I should allow all daemons to assault if… in the process of summoning you must remove one model from the summoning squad per wound of daemon entering.

    Currently the addicts can get a traitor truck from fast attack, or borrow a dedicated transport from an allied unit. Is this too limiting? Do you guys think I should put in dedicated transports? I will most like be adding some more vehicles to the codex, some with transport capacity. Expect to see stats for an armored bus and civilian car at some point. I might put in a walker that is somewhere between a sentinel and a defiler, and perhaps even put in the Stalk Tank (see http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_y6W7acufmFE/Sor7jFH8iSI/AAAAAAAAAko/SSTiJHP0liI/s1600-h/Stalk-Tank-Datasheet.jpg ).

    I can’t wait to see your list, and any battle experiences you might have. This project needs playtesting, badly. I am open minded to adjusting any part of the codex (especially point costs) in the interests of fairness (and coolness).

  7. BoBliness says:

    Hmmm,

    I’m bored at work, I’ll have a tinker and see what lists I can come up with from it.

    I think designating it ‘not mech-heavy’ will make it struggle against a lot of whats out there because it doesnt look at first glance like its got much thats hard enough to live on the table without a transport.

    I’ll see if I can come up with some obviously broken lists πŸ˜›

    The summoned demons…..let me put it this way:

    If you let me use demons from codex demons, with the ability to assault on the turn they are summoned….I think you will not only make codex:demons players cry, but also pretty much everyone else. There’s several reasons you cant do it with codex demons, but the fact is the units in that codex have been designed with that rule in mind. Take away that rule and some of their stuff becomes horribly powerful.

    Heck, fiends will be assaulting the instant you summon them, pretty much regardless of scatter. Thats a lot of pain.

    You’ve put some limitations on them, which is good, but I suspect that you cant afford to let them use assault when summoned rules.

  8. BoBliness says:

    I also sort of feel like letting them use Chaos Space Marine units takes away from the point of the 1-6 aspiring champions.

    I see you’ve disallowed fiends/bloodcrushers etc, so that solves one of my issues with the assault-when-summoned, though greater demons….that could be really ugly. I dont have a copy of codex : demons around these days unfortunately.

    You’ve also listed ‘chaos icon’ a lot, at 15 points. What exactly were you planning for it to do? In the CSM list it grants the unit the mark, but you’ve given one set cost?

    And it looks like up to three mutants can have an icon? Does it grant a mark or what?

  9. BoBliness says:

    Trucks listed as fast attack, is that intentional or are they also dedicated transports? If transport, the following list would be quite difficult to take on I think:

    6 aspiring champions of chaos – mark of khorne, power fist, meltagun, 420
    Mutant Overlord – mark of nurgle 140
    5 Big mutants – One big boss, one flamer, one heavy stubber, one chaos icon 190
    5 Big mutants – One big boss, one flamer, one heavy stubber, one chaos icon 190
    5 Big mutants – One big boss, one flamer, one heavy stubber, one chaos icon 190
    5 Big mutants – One big boss, one flamer, one heavy stubber, one chaos icon 190
    5 Big mutants – One big boss, one flamer, one heavy stubber, one chaos icon 190
    5 Big mutants – One big boss, one flamer, one heavy stubber, one chaos icon 190
    six trucks 240
    1940

    Gives you six units that are all strength 6 on the charge, are all toughness 5 with 5 individuals to allocate wounds onto and each individual taking two before you lose a model, so 10 wounds to a single death.
    Each unit has a powerfist and delivers (on the charge):
    26 strength 6 WS4 attacks
    4 strength 8 WS4 Powerweapon attacks

    Its short on anti-vehicle, each unit has a meltagun, but it would struggle against land raiders.

    It’d be fun to try, I suspect it would be fairly unpleasant to play against.
    I think it would tear shit up against a large percentage of armies though

  10. BoBliness says:

    A few more comments:
    Mark interaction : If my aspiring champ with mark of khorne from LAD codex joins my chaos space marines with an icon of nurgle, what happens? Does he get both?
    Similarly, can I join a unit of Plague Marines with my mark of khorne champ?
    I suppose you can since CSM doesnt currently stop you anyway, but that makes it possible to have a sqaud of say 20 plague marines…with 7 champions that have powerfists.
    Thats one mofo of a squad!!

    Oh, and I did play with the idea of 12 big mutants with all six aspiring champs in their unit…that becomes an awfully hard unit to deal with too, though its also ludicrously expensive. I suspect though that it would even be tricky for the seer council. Thats a LOT of attacks, plus stubborn with free rerolls…and many many powerfists that are instant kill on seers and/or nobs.

    As tarpits go a 50 man squad of rabble with one aspiring champ with a fist and a mark of khorne is a fairly unpleasant thing to run into though not really a threat, you have to wipe out every single one since any time he fails a test he just kills one off….
    It’ll take you a while to churn through 50 models with a 3 attack powerfist sitting there every turn.

    You might want to explicitly limit it to one aspiring champion placed into any one squad, just to stop the mega tarpit of 50 rabble with all six champs in it….thats a unit that can cover the entire board and put out 18 powerfist attacks a turn with a 50 wound buffer zone (plus LD9 stubborn with sacrifice as a backup)
    You could multi-charge and entire army with that one unit lol.

    Dont forget that swarms automatically get stealth, so you can set up a 12 horde objective sitter that will have 36 wounds on a 3+ cover save, not sure if thats really that big an issue, flamers will still carve through them (though invulnerable save helps a bit there)

    I think overall the codex isnt particularly powerful (though I’m not sure how the big mutants army would pan out) but I’d be very careful with what you allow in the crossover codex’s and how it works.

    The plaguemarine unit with multi-champ is an example.

    Renegade psycher seems a little underpowered, particularly for an army where you are really only allowed one HQ. I cant see many people taking him, though fear would work well in conjunction with an imperial guard psycher squad, potentially you can reliably pin killer squad perhaps….worth a thought anyway

    I’d say the plague master and the mutant overlord are the two obvious choices for my money.

    Plague master opens up a particularly annoying but not that threatening list. You can certainly force a tie in an objective mission using a bulk list from him.

    The mutant overlord has a mark of tzeentch entry that says ‘adds 1 to his invul save’….he doesnt have one πŸ™‚
    Were you meaning it to give him a 6+ or a 5+? Or did you intend his existing 4+ to be invul?

  11. BoBliness says:

    Hmm, feel free to delete/edit etc these comments, there’s rather a lot of them and its only getting longer πŸ˜›

    I like the codex, and i like the idea behind it, I think most of what you’ve got is well written and thought out, so a lot of the things I’ll mention are basically just nit-picking.

    Scavengers rule : This is very limiting and needs a quick clarification of intent.
    First – by ‘traitors’ I assume you meant only the unit entitled traitors. This means a maximum of six vehicles, and to obtain that number you would need to have your full troop complement just in traitors.
    This means that any themed army such as mutants or plague….cant use transports pretty much period. Or any vehicles.
    So second – were you intending it to limit just ‘bought in’ vehicles, those from the IG codex or the CSM codex? This would make more sense.

    I’d suggest you reword it to something like:

    Scavengers:
    A Lost and The Damned army is usually operating without organized
    support. Either they are a desperate band living from raid to raid,
    or part of a larger horde that is indifferent to the needs of its troops.
    Scavenging is the only way the warband can survive and rearm itself.
    Even when equipment and vehicles can be looted, it is another problem
    to find clear minds amongst the rabble. It is usually only amongst
    groups of traitor Imperial Guardsmen and hardened mercenary thugs
    that anyone can be found to operate and repair any technology beyond a basic truck. Once
    a looted vehicle is fixed up and functioning with a crew, the next
    challenge is to keep inept, groping mutants and lunatics out of the
    crew compartments.
    A Lost and the Damned army may only include a maximum of one vehicle from the Imperial Guard codex or Chaos space marine codex for every unit of Traitors in the army. A Lost and the Damned army may include any number of trucks, as orcs amply demonstrate, a functioning brain is surplus to requirements for a truck.

    In return, you may wish to reduce the armour values of the truck to standard 10 all round, open topped. Then add chimeras as an option in the IG listings. So people can buy a chimera, but it takes from their vehicle allowance, or they can buy a truck, but its shit πŸ™‚

  12. BoBliness says:

    Heres a question for you:
    How do the Giant Spawn function?
    first – do they function as a unit as per normal rules? So they need coherency etc?
    second – must they all be equipped similarly?
    third – I’m assuming you intended the comments in the spawn movement rules to cover giant chaos spawn too (as in they can run and they have to assault) but if you did, make it explicit, otherwise people will stick with ‘my giant chaos spawn can run as per main rule book, but it doesnt have to assault like normal chaos spawn cuz the LAD codex doesnt say so)
    Fourth – do they have an invulnerable save, none shown, but they are demonkin which normally implies an invul save.

    Might be worth changing their acid spit into breath of chaos psychic power also for flavour, this would also mean you cant take both a heavy flamer and a psychic power.

    Right now I’m eyeing off an army with 6-9 of these in it, all with heavy flamers and gift of chaos… see gift is pretty average with only one psycher…but with 6-9 casts of it a turn potentially thats a LOT of chaos spawn and a lot of dead opponents with no save.

    Its also complete death for a seer council (no wound so no save), less so for nob bikers, but still its two dead a turn and two chaos spawn a turn against them (using six powers).

    I suspect that the giant spawn are currently overpowered with the potential for so many, but without playtesting I guess you wont know. 2d6 S7 monstrous creature attacks per model is pretty nasty, combined with a psychic power and a heavy flamer with five wounds (T6) and a 3+ basic save (presumably with a 5++) and you’ve got a pretty nasty monster.

    You’ve basically given this codex the biggest MC spam list ever πŸ™‚ No complaints from me, the 9 giant spawn list would be fun to play with a mega mutant in just for kicks!

  13. chaosgerbil says:

    Thank you for trying to break the codex, that is exactly what this project needs.

    Currently traitor trucks are not dedicated, it is a deliberate limitation both for play balance and for game world realism. It doesn’t make sense for LATD to be a strong mech ready list and have all the other advantages they get from the diversity of units they can field.

    Thanks for all the comments!

    The daemons thing is tricky, i’m going to have to do some work on it and get back to you guys.

    The scavengers rule is deliberately limiting to prevent the kind of min maxing that would go on without it, and again to match up the force with the fluff. It is also a carryover from the Eye of terror limitation on unit choices, which was even more limiting. I could see amending it but it is tricky, let in too many dangerous vehicles and all the horde / assault options and it could be a broken combination. Yes the limit would be six as written and only if you took all traitors, but I could see amending the rule or putting in some vehicles that do not count against the limit. Maybe the limitation should only apply to allied vehicles as you suggest, but in that case I would definitely not offer dedicated transports.

    Here’s my intention for the champions, I will have to make the wording more explicit:
    – No more than one aspiring champion can split off to join a unit
    – Aspiring champions with a dedicated mark may not join a unit with a rival mark or chaos power allegience

    The rabble tarpit might not be quite as durable as you think, if the sacrifice re-roll fails then the squad breaks and the champion takes a wound. Still, they would be hard to break, which is part of the point of a horde.

    Swarms cannot score per the main rulebook but they will be good contestors.

    The mutant overlord w/ mark needs a cleanup, i think the MOT should read gives a 5+ save not improves it

    I will clean up the Giant Spawn for clarity, and perhaps mess with the stats. I can see going breath of chaos instead of the heavy flamer. The spawn was originally 1 unit and when i changed it to 1-3 I forgot to clean up the wording on thje option. The limitation on these guys is their movement, they are a bit slow and random to make up for their power. I thought it would be interesting for 40k to have a big durable assault unit that isn’t rushing forward all over the board but instead roams a limited area.

    You guys have done a great job commenting, and have given me a lot to think about. I’ll be putting up a new version by the end of the month if not sooner.

  14. chaosgerbil says:

    Oops when I wrote “No more than one aspiring champion can split off to join a unit” I meant “No more than one aspiring champion can split off to join THE SAME unit”

    I’ll take a look a the rogue psyker and see if he needs a buff, maybe some more wargear options would help him.

  15. BoBliness says:

    more thoughts πŸ™‚

    -Were you intending the icon to just be an icon for deepstrike and thats it?
    -The tarpit still stands, since it will be leadership nine and stubborn with sacrifice…its a one in 36 chance of breaking under any circumstances. Thats pretty bloody hard to break πŸ™‚ and its not fearless so no fearless wounds.
    -The fix to make it max one champ per unit is needed i think, though after more thought I’m not sure that its THAT broken either way, certainly seven champs in a plaguemarine unit would be very unpleasant, but its also about 600 points…. thought it would stomp the seer council into the dirt lol. which isnt necessarily a bad thing πŸ™‚
    -I’m not sure about this whole ‘they shouldnt be able to mech-up’ thing. Think very carefully about it, I think you may find you completely gimp the codex if you do it.
    -Upon further consideration I dont think the Big mutants or the addicts are overpowered. The big mutants are at best a poor version of the bloodcrusher, they have no power weapons, mildly better wound allocation but no armour and no invulnerable save. Of course they dont have to deep strike either, but without a transport thats not really an advantage.
    -Swarms cannot score per the main rulebook but they will be good contestors. where does it say this? its not in the USR for swarm.
    -Be aware that with your Giant spawn you havent actually forced them to be *that* random or immobile. They can run. Hence they will really move (most of the time) 2d6″ a turn where the player wants them to. I dont think this is a bad thing, no point in making them useless after all!
    -The giant spawn are good, I’m just not sure that nine of them should be acceptable πŸ˜› Its hard to avoid nine monstrous creatures that all have the ability to turn your special characters into mushy piles of angry goo

    Here’s my issue on the mech side:
    If you make this a non-mech list essentially then why bother including IG as the main ‘natural’ allies? I mean realistically IG without a ready supply of tanks is….well….not overly good?

    I dont think trucks available as dedicated transports would be breaking for the codex. I reconsidered my big mutant army and I think play testing might prove it not as good as I’d thought on paper. I’d have to try it (which i cant do any time soon, in the middle of moving country, house, job and getting married lol) but I think most mech forces would stop it dead and a really good gun line would give it kittens. Six trucks is not impossible to take down in a single turn of shooting, give me two turns with Tau and there’d be nothing left but mutants with 1-2 wounds each wandering slowly towards my lines.

    I’d say you let them have trucks, the addicts in trucks are no worse than wyches on raiders game-play-wise
    I’d go with limiting the allied vehicles (though you’ve already done that with the maximum of one vehicle per entry restriction) and I’d consider something like (although this might be too flavourful and context-y rather than a decent solid rule) each vehicle must be accompanied in list selection by a corresponding infantry unit from that codex.

    So to have a defiler you have to have a unit of troops from Codex CSM.
    To have a leman russ you have to have a unit of guard

    Something that makes you ‘flavour’ your force (which i get the impression is your main aim?)
    I’m not too sure how you’d best word it.

    Realistically your current list without the ‘traitor’ requirement max’s out at 3 leman russ, 3 hell hounds. Which isnt exactly super-mech-spam given IG can do 9 and 9!

  16. BoBliness says:

    as for the rogue psycher, you’d need to buff him pretty good to make him a solid choice as the only HQ the army gets…. remember he’s competing with not only mutant overlord and plaguemaster (both of whom change army configuration and scoring, always popular) but also with greater demons from Codex: Demons..

    Oh, on that note. I think you’ll want to clarify the wording on the plague master too.
    If I’m reading ‘corruption is the gift’ correctly then RAW will let me take all of the Codex:demons Nurgle special characters (hello tallyman) as allies.
    I’m not even sure they’d take up force organisation chart slots, depending on your definition of ‘special allies’.

    so what does ‘special allies’ mean is the question πŸ™‚
    Do they still take up slots, if so, as they are in codex demons? so then the heralds I think are elites? or do they all take up other types?

    You’ll have to be very careful how you interact with codex:demons, its not a typical codex in a few ways.

  17. BoBliness says:

    Just a quick thought,
    you could try changing renegade pyscher into ‘renegade psychers’ and make him 1-3 say….letting them split off into units same as the champions, which would give an alternate flavour. Perhaps even make it possible to have them as the list spot for aspiring champs, so you could either have an army led by a bunch of marines that want glory, or a bunch of psychers that have gathered together to escape the clutches of the imperium and are gathering a band of loyal followers from the dregs of the world.

    That would give you a really wierd flavour to an army, sort of a thousand suns style sorc in every unit but without the stupidly expensive marines and possibly with a more fun set of spells

    I mean you could give them a couple of spell lists to choose from, perhaps dependant on mark or dependant on origin…..

    I’m just talkin off top of head here, its probably got holes by the ton rules-wise as a suggestion, but it would be a cool piece of fluff lol.

    big mutants led by mages πŸ˜›

  18. chaosgerbil says:

    praise “Bob”!

    I’m all about clarity and fairness, without these guidelines the codex will be rubbish. Again, I really appreciate the feedback and this is helping a lot. Anything that can be misread by the average player or misinterpreted by your average rules lawyer will be edited.

    Swarms: pg. 90, BRB, scoring units section. I only took off the Mindless rule from them since it was redundant, but I’ll add it back for flavor.

    I updated the Aspiring champion rule to:
    One H.Q. slot must either be filled with Aspiring Champions Of Chaos, or remain empty. During deployment, any Aspiring Champions may be split off from their unit and assigned to lead any squad from within this codex (but not any allied units). Only one Aspiring Champion may join each unit in this matter. From then onward, any Aspiring Champions count as a part of the unit they join for all intents and purposes and thus do not yield additional Kill Points.

    The rogue psyker isn’t competing with the greater daemons as he can become one, but he is competing with other choices. I restored a wound I took from him earlier after someone objected to his stats, but I didn’t change his points which was an oversight. Basically he isn’t as finished as some of the other characters and I fully intend him to change the force org or give another special rule. I like the idea of fielding smaller weaker psykers along the lines of aspiring champions, I will make them a seperate hq choice to keep things clean (although it will be less concise, that is not as important as clarity…and Codex: daemons has 15 hq choices!)
    Giving force org powers is the aim with all the HQ, actually I have been planning to switch up the allies so that you need a proper HQ to take advantage of them.

    I am considering making this kind of switch:
    – Rogue psyker / cult leader: would allow use of codex: daemons
    – Exalted champion CSM: will allow CSM units
    – Merc lord: allows IG units and kroot
    – Mutant overlord: allows for scoring big mutants and gives mutants mob up rule, and only he allows giant spawn to be taken to 1-3 per choice
    – Plaguemaster will allow plague marines, nurglings and beasts of nurgle

    Along the lines of the plaguemaster, I am planning on 3 other god specific champions.
    Bloodlord allows Khorne Bezerkers, Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers, Fleshhounds, etc.
    Lustweaver allows Noise Marines, Fiends, Seekers, etc.
    Master of Intrigues allows Thousand Sons, Horrors, etc.

    The trouble is Word bearers and undivided champions, maybe I will make one like this:
    Lord of Generic: Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Chosen Space Marines, Horrors, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, Lesser Daemons and Furies

    Plague master rule fragment changed to: ” The Plaguemaster also allows you to take up to 3 units of Beasts of Nurgle as allies.

    I guess I could allow trucks as dedicated unit for traitors at least, and not have them count against the limit. I’ll introduce one that is close topped but not fast and with slightly better armor, maybe I’ll just call it a rhino. For big mutants, etc. I think you should be stuck buying them from fast attack. I could be swayed though, I know mech is foremost in most competitive player’s minds. I don’t want to unbalance it too far to being overpowered or compromise the theme of the list too badly.

  19. BoBliness says:

    The reason I said he was competing with the demon is that you havent anywhere specified that the allied greater demon doesnt take up a HQ slot.

    Since one slot is reserved for the aspiring champs, you cant get more than one more HQ….hence the issue.

    I dont *think* you want to splinter the codex too much, though thats up to you since its really a fundamental decision about what you actually want from the codex.

    If you have too many force organisation manipulators, well unless you’re careful it might limit it too much.
    Meaning if I want a mutant overlord then I cant have any marines (even though i’ve got aspiring champs which is a bit wierd) and i cant have any demons. If i get a psycher then all my elites are going to be taken by my allied demons most likely etc etc

    This isnt an issue, and in some ways it not only makes sence, but also limits the ability to ‘break’ the codex with unusual combos.
    But it also limits the ability to HAVE unusual combos, which is one of the cool things about the list!

    I was wondering if instead of going down that path, you use the Aspiring champs to dictate it…
    So you make them cult aspiring champions. That way not only are they cooler (since you’d be able to get a genuine plague marine aspiring champ or berserker aspiring champ!) it also lets you integrate the sorceror (as a thousand sons ‘aspiring champ’ … sort of :P)

    Heres a suggested entry πŸ™‚ (Obviously i’m now horning in on your gig, sorry bout that, feel free to 100% ignore!!)

    Change Aspiring champs entry to 0-3
    You’ll need a price for each type
    Plaguechampion
    Bloodchampion
    Aspiring sorceror
    Noisechampion (?)

    Each Aspiring Champion taken can be kitted out individually. (You may also want to give them two wounds each, I’m thinking they’d be like the lone wolf/rune priests for SW, two wound mini-heros mmmm terminator armour πŸ˜› well ok, maybe termy armour would be too far…but maybe not if you’ve only got three or four?)

    One leader and I’m it! : Any unit of infantry taken from codex CSM MUST be accompanied by an aspiring champion of the same alignment split from your HQ choice. If the unit taken from CSM does not have an alignment (or follows chaos undivided) then that unit must be accompanied by any one of the aspiring champions from your HQ. The unit may not take any champion upgrade usually allowed by Codex : CSM.

    (Note that the CSM unit would still fill an elite spot as you’d described earlier, which would hopefully restrict abuse)

    The way I see it, the above entry would roll a couple of your current ‘extra’ HQ choices into the existing aspiring champions choice, making the aspiring champion choice a bit more punchy and fun at the same time.

    I sort of feel that the existing aspiring champs dont have anything to differentiate them from allied aspiring champs (in fact if i take a plaguemarine squad as allies their champion is a lot better than my aspiring champs from your list…which is sad 😦 )

    The one leader rule I sort of had a shot at above would stop you getting aspiring champs with your allies, which I think you need to stop for your codex, this is tied into my feel that they should be better than normal aspiring champs.

    So with that entry, i could make a tzeentchy/mutation army with mutants and sorcerors, or a nurgley army with plagumarine champs and a plague master, or an assaulty army with khorne berserker champs and mutant lord (Big mutants with a berserker champ/lone wolf style fella….that could be a serious unit)

    and you can also fit in a greater demon by only having your aspiring champs choice as a HQ with the demon, without that really nerfing your army choices too hard.

    Once again, I know that suggestion is starting down the path to writing bits of your codex for you so feel free to ignore it πŸ˜›

  20. BoBliness says:

    I dont think you need to give them a better transport, if they want better transports, they have to pay and buy them from either the IG or CSM list.

    Just give them orc-style trucks for dedicated transports, that fits with the army theme of ragtag rebels pretty well doesnt it?

    Certainly noone is going to complain that it makes them too good !

    Jury is still out on whether the heavier elements of CSM should be allowed (Land raider and termies for example).
    One part of me says no, but a lot of me says there are heaps of fluffy armies that you’re hoping to make from this codex that really could have a land raider or termies.
    And I like the idea of being able to terminator armour the aspiring champs.

    Dunno, thats another one of those ‘your choice, your codex’ type calls !

  21. chaosgerbil says:

    I’m working on the book right now, here is a sample of some of the changes:

    LOST AND THE DAMNED ARMY SPECIAL RULES

    Ambition
    Arrogant Traitor Marines seeking to build their legend attract groups of deluded fools as followers, which they use as their own personal cannon fodder.

    Any Aspiring Champions may be split off from their unit and assigned to lead any squad from within this codex, but not any allied units. This is done during deployment. From then onward, any Aspiring Champions count as a part of the unit they join for all intents and purposes and thus do not yield additional Kill Points. No unit may be joined by more than one Aspiring Champion.

    Daemonic Summoning
    Sometimes the raids and riots of treacherous renegades are only a prelude to a full scale daemonic incursion. Unwitting fools carry chaos icons into battle, that surge with hidden power.

    Units of Lesser Daemons from Codex: Chaos Space Marines and any non HQ unit taken from Codex: Daemons must start the game in reserve, but are not split up into two cohorts. Daemons can only enter play if the first model deep striking is within 6” of a Chaos Icon. The Icon must be either of Chaos Glory or match the same chaos diety. Roll for scatter as normal. Lesser Daemons may assault the turn they enter play, but not units selected from Codex: Daemons.

    Jealousy
    Rival commanders soon turn to treachery and murder to solve their differences. Assassination and promotion are often synonymous within the forces of the damned.

    Only one H.Q. slot in a Lost and the Damned army can be used to select a character (Aspiring Champions are a unit so they are an exception). However, you may also choose any non-unique H.Q. choice from Codex: Daemons or the Summoned Greater Daemon from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to possess the host character, and this selection will share the same H.Q. slot. See the Possession rule below for how this works.

    Possession
    Some leaders are hollow shells of their former selves, their souls having been consumed by a warp predator.

    When a Greater Daemon or Herald of any kind is taken from either Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Daemons, it must enter play from reserves, through Possession. Write down a specific character model, chosen from H.Q., to serve as host. This may NOT be an Aspiring Champion. You may keep the host’s identity a secret. When the Daemon becomes available it will take the place of the host model, killing the character. The host may optionally resist possession and on a successful leadership test they will send the daemon back into reserve, at the cost of taking a wound with no saves allowed. The host cannot begin the game in reserve. If the host dies before the daemon arrives, the daemon enters immediately in place of the dead model. (Refer to Codex: Chaos Space Marines, pg. 61.) The host will no longer count for kill points unless theDaemon is killed too. The Daemon may move, shoot, and assault the turn it arrives.

    Scavengers
    A Lost and The Damned army is usually operating without organized support. Either they are a desperate band living from raid to raid, or part of a larger horde that is indifferent to the needs of its troops. Scavenging is the only way the warband can survive. Even when equipment and vehicles can be looted, it is hard to find clear minds amongst the horde. Usually only traitor Imperial Guardsmen, PDF, and hardened mercenary thugs understand how to operate and repair the technology. Once a looted vehicle is repaired and operating, the next challenge is to keep inept, groping mutants and lunatics out of the crew compartments.

    A Lost and the Damned army may not include more allied vehicles in it than units of Traitors. Vehicles unique to this codex (such as the Traitor Truck) do not count againt this limit.

  22. chaosgerbil says:

    The above should address a great deal of the points you raised and also tidy up the rules issues / grey areas. I hope.

    Chaos icons are indeed just homing beacons in this list, for the time being. I may make better ones available.

    I think for the Aspiring champions, they can just get an additional special rule added to make them awesome, like…
    The squad may take one Mark Of Chaos:
    -Mark Of Chaos Undivided +5 pts. per model
    (GIves +1 WS and Stealth)
    – Mark Of Khorne +10 pts. per model
    (Gives +1 A and Furious Charge)
    – Mark Of Nurgle +10 pts. per model
    (Gives +1 T , -1 I, and Feel No Pain)
    – Mark of Slaanesh +10 pts. per model
    (Gives +1 I, and Fleet)
    – Mark Of Tzeentch +10 pts. per model
    (Gives 5+ Inv. Save, and AP 3 Bolt Weapons)

    I’m not sure about the points on those upgrades, but I am bumping up the champions to 30 points a piece but giving them stubborn. Or should I get rid of stubborn as too broken?

  23. chaosgerbil says:

    Check the main post for 1.9, I made a lot of changes. I mostly focused on the H.Q., the allies, and the special rules sections, but I also made mutants and rabble more interesting (and hopefully more fun).

  24. BoBliness says:

    Stubborn is awfully good, but that doesnt make it necessarily broken.
    Whether its in keeping with the army or not, not sure.

    Hmmmm.
    Some quick thoughts:
    -If I MUST possess my purchased character with the greater demon, thats going to reduce the overall value of my purchased character and/or my demon. Depending on how you look at it. I dont see any way to factor that in. Why did you remove the ability to possess one of the aspiring champs?
    -I understand the decision on the demons being able to assault or not the turn they enter. The solution you’ve gone with is probably as good as any other, though its a touch messy πŸ™‚
    An alternative would be to force people to use the codex:demons for demons rather than CSM, but I cant really tell from looking whether that would work or not.
    -My understanding of the way you’ve got it now I would always take my cheapest option for a second HQ and the best Greater demon from codex demons I could get my hands on. Throw my hq in a truck with a unit thats got an icon (though your icons are pricey! more on that later)and enjoy being able to bring my greater demon on and assault with him instantly. I’m not sure if thats powerful or not, it certainly trumps the codex:demons rules in that he can assault when he arrives (and you have near-complete control over his location!)

    I’m still concerned that any aspiring champion i bring in from Codex CSM is as good as the ones I can buy with my lost and the damned 😦
    I sort of feel like the guys in this codex should be special, they’ve split from their own units presumably, to become a warlord. They arent warlords yet, but they’re working on it!

    Well done on finding the time to update and such!

  25. BoBliness says:

    Comments on 1.9:

    I like what you’ve done with greater demons for purchase and summoning. It looks good, sounds good and I think it will play well, nice work!

    I think you’ll need to go through and tidy up what each HQ lets you do with your force org, some notes:
    -Powerful friends – Is the intent to remove the restrictions on how many allies you can have from each slot? as currently written you can take three land raiders I think. This isnt necessarily a problem. Fortunately (or unfortunately) there isnt actually that much stuff in the CSM codex that is good enough to make this break lol. Yay you can get oblits….yay?
    -If the intent of the exalted champion of chaos was to make a toned down chaos lord from CSM, thats worked. Is he meant to be able to get terminator armour at least?
    -Master of Intrigues is a cool name.
    -Mercenary lord will make the list a lot more powerful at lower point values where the ability to buy more vehicles will be useful, current restrictions (single vehicle purchases)mean that in order to use his ability with three traitor squads, you’d have to fill all your fast attack and heavy support from codex IG (three individual leman russ, three individual hell hound), at 1000 or 1500 this might be quite good (though you basically become an imperial guard list lol) but by 2000 you’re going to be wanting other stuff (LIKE GIANT SPAWN!!) so you probably wont see him. This is probably not a problem, it makes sense to have a merc lord running a small force, but bigger forces being held together by a nastier character
    -The merc lord has relentless. Just thought I’d point that out. Is that intended to go with his missile launcher??
    -Plaguemaster, clarify what units count as what, I mean, do the ‘now scoring’ units count as troops or are they still an elites choice (as per earlier rules), do the beasts of nurgle count as anything in particular or are they a bonus choice?
    -Psycher lord – still not convinced by this guy, looking forward to renegade psycher battallion thingy πŸ™‚
    -Psycher lord – change his box, it currently says ‘exalted champion of chaos’ typo.
    -Psycher lord – Mark of tzeentch typically allows an extra power use per turn, did you want him to get that or not? I think he should probably get it since if its a tzeentch themed LAD army i’m making i’d like my sorceror to at least be passably good πŸ˜›
    -Big mutant boss LD down to 8 and added rending? Good call on both I’d say.
    -Chaos spawn, is that save invulnerable or not? They’re demonkin
    -Addicts, I like this unit, I’m now torn, was two upgraded weapons too strong or not? Cuz one almost feels too weak πŸ˜›
    -Mutants : The mutant boss is pricey as hell….but probably worth every penny. This entry is now the ultimate troop choice for the list in my opinion. For 125 points I get an 11 man squad with three flamers, a leader with 3 wounds (more than my exalted chaos champ!!) who has rending, and the whole squad is stubborn on LD 8. Then, if they DO run (which is hard to believe with sacrifice!) they can regroup with another squad of mutants anyway….and they’ve all got four attacks on the charge! Their leader is strength 6 rending on the charge with six attacks on the charge (though you havent listed his wargear, i’m assuming its ‘as squad’)
    Looks to me like they just became one of the better troop choices in the game, their only drawback (which is quite large) being their lack of melta. Once again, until you playtest them you wont know, but that squad looks a touch too good for price to my eye.
    The scout option I’m not too worried about, the price on it is pretty high.
    -If zombies are worth 7 points each then your mutants are underpriced imo.
    -The only reason I can see me taking traitors is to get a hellhound or leman russ.
    -Rabble are now rabble, no longer a tarpit waiting to happen, a pity, but I’d say its probably the right choice πŸ™‚ Whether they are worth having or not…dunno, they compete with mutants for a spot

    Chaos icons seem massively overpriced if all they are is teleport homers.
    If they will have other effects (or can be upgraded or something) then 15 is a possibility, i’d say more like 5 and then upgrade to do stuff (mark of god or similar)

  26. BoBliness says:

    Mutant overlord – mark of nurgle 140
    4 Aspiring champions – mark of nurgle, powerfist, melta gun 280

    10 mutants, three flamers, mutant boss 125
    truck 40

    10 mutants, three flamers, mutant boss 125
    truck – heavy flamer 50

    10 mutants, three flamers, mutant boss 125
    truck 40
    5 Big mutants – One big boss, one flamer, one heavy stubber, one chaos icon 195
    5 traitors,2 melta guns, truck 85
    5 traitors,autocannon, truck 75

    2 Giant chaos spawn – gift of chaos 240
    2 Giant chaos spawn – gift of chaos 240
    2 Giant chaos spawn – gift of chaos 240

    2000

    Its still going to struggle horribly against armour though 😦
    I think its got a chance though, seven monstrous creatures, 4 melta guns that are effectively unkillable till the entire squad goes down the drain.

    If the traitors let me take chimeras a whole bunch of other options open up πŸ˜‰

  27. BoBliness says:

    oh, in the above the big mutants ride in the auto-traitor squads truck.

    I’d like to test giant chaos spawn a bit and see how well they perform, that list relies exceedingly heavily on them lol

  28. chaosgerbil says:

    The intent with “powerful friends” is to allow one “go crazy” choice from codex csm so it would be the only way to get a unit of terminators, land raider, oblits, etc. I decided a while back that the exalted champion will be getting terminator armor, but since it was mostly a matter of busy work emulating the CSM codex I haven’t gotten around to including it.

    Master of Intrigues will be Tzeentch themed but not necessarily a master sorcerer. I will build them so they can represent alpha legion or something, maybe by giving them abilities to infiltrate from any board edge or helping redeploy something, traps perhaps.

    The idea with the HQs is there should be no obvious choices on what sucks or rules from a power-gamer perspective. Greater Daemons are strong but come at a high price, if I made it so they came out of aspiring champions and could assault it would not be balanced IMO.

    I like your analysis of the mercenary lord, and yes relentless means move and fire with the missile launcher / sniper rifle. He is meant to be the ultimate soldier that is still human but not a marine or warp fiend. I’m sure he would be packing some cybernetics or at maybe have some kind of super soldier combat drugs cocktail. If the player does not want to model a missile launcher then you could envision it as a (more reliable) psychic attack. Do you think relentless should have to be purchased, as to not make getting the missile launcher too obvious? I did move his bolt pistol over to the column of what will have to be purchased, so you he only has one close combat weapon and then has to choose whether to get that extra attack and have one ranged weapon or have two ranged. However, I am worried that he might be a bit too power gamer in letting you field three leman russes / ordnance and three hellhounds. That does go too far. What about instead, he can buy a dedicated chimera, rhino, or truck and he also counts as a unit of traitors for buying vehicles, letting you get a free choice. I am trying to find a balance with this guy, as he best represents blood pact armies and guard legions that went renegade more recently in their past or somehow maintained organization.

    If I made dedicated transports not count against the limit, that is another compromise but somewhat easy to abuse, especially taking the merc lord and being able to buy veterans. Vets chimeras wouldn’t count but if you wanted more vehicles like tanks you would need to get some traitor squads too, although you could still mech everything up fairly easily.

    Plaguemaster, Psycher Lord – I’ll take a look at these

    Big mutant bosses really needed that, although I was originally going to give the whole unit rending that seemed a bit much, especially if they could ever score. Also, now they are exactly the same in both mutants and big mutants squads, and 50 pts.

    Chaos spawn do not get any of the advantages of being a daemon, no invulnerable save. Perhaps I should change the name “Daemonkin” since it is already in use by the possessed. I think an invulnerable save would be something purchasable for tzeentch, maybe I will allow them to be marked. If tzeentch is a common choice to grab I don’t care, since I see chaos spawn as being a very tzeencthian themed type of critter anyways.

    Addicts… ahh, the clumsy power of the nerf bat. It’s hard to make some of these choices, eh?

    Mutants: It might be stubborn that is making them too cheap for the points. This is part of the reason I had mutants up at a minimum of 20, although people were complaining and some will want to run them in trucks like orks. This one is tricky sine I wanted the mutant boss to be identical in both big mutants and mutants. IG Ogryns pay through the nose for their stubborn since every guy is expensive, but mutants are cheap. Maybe the cure is just putting them at 7 points each and knocking down their special weapon count. Still, that wouldn’t impact your min max squad so this needs further work.

    Mutants being tempting effective assault squads is the counter to traitors letting you get access to better vehicles, and heavy weapons, and now dedicated transport. This is meant to be an internal balancing act within the codex, and my goal is for all troop selections are tempting and not just obvious what to take as a power build. The mutants are tipping the scale as written, so I will address this as I mentioned.

    Chaos icons are a way of making you pay in points for the privilege of daemons, as an attempt to balance. Also, the homers in chaos daemons are 25 points, although they are far better then the LATD ones. In the future I am planning on adding a wargear section, and I will revisit standards / icons and add some themed ones like they had in the old days. I will eventually do ten in total, one unique and one generic version for each of the chaos gods and one each for undivided factions.

    Please, test away, and thanks again.

  29. BoBliness says:

    Keep the merc lord relentless as standard imo, but maybe give him more options for weapons?
    I mean why not let people go nuts with him? plasma cannons, small thermonuclear devices etc.
    From what you’ve said I get the impression you want him to be basically as much of a tech’d up pirate as possible, the sort of fella that left most of his humanity behind on the doorstep of the cybernetic-implant parlour?

    So let him buy digital weapons, pretty much any gun, maybe even some more outlandish options? You cant really give him feel no pain since thats used extensively by nurgle, but you could give him we’ll be back lol, something to say ‘he’s more machine now than man, twisted and evil!’
    I’d like to see him as a modellers delight, you can go wild, give him basically any weapons loadout under the sun. Then i’d want to take him over the others!
    Realistically, HQ choices with heavy weapons are pretty bloody uncommon and notoriously weak by comparison with the close combat monstrosities most codex’s dream up. Even with a pair of missile launchers (yes I’m serious, that model would look awesome, think broadside but just a dude with two rocket launchers lol) he’d still only be equivalent to a dark reaper exarch in overall killyness. Which is hardly stellar for the points!!

    With two plasma cannons (and a custom cooling kit installed so they dont overheat!) he’d look awesome and be quite effective…but still not really ‘uber’ when you think about it…double lascannon? Makes him an un-twinlinked Land-raider shooting (whtout the assaultcannon or heavy bolters whatever) which, for the amount of points he’d cost….is still not particularly powerful.

    I think you could afford to let him have just about anything really. I’d like to make one with multi-Lascannon (one on each shoulder of course) and some random implants to make him a bit of a beast in CC also. Not a true beast, but enough of one that you wouldnt have to fear for your life against guardians πŸ˜›

    I cant tell if the mutants are under or over priced…they ‘feel’ under, but its impossible to tell without testing. Besides which, is it a massive problem if they provide an avenue to a cool list that works?

    As long as it isnt more powerful than alternate builds in other codexes (and preferably isnt too much more powerful than other LAD builds) then there is no shame in having a few units that are mildly underpriced. The question is just how good they are on the field.

    The reason I particularly liked them is:
    3 flamers in a squad
    Awesome squad leader (the guy is an absolute beast)
    Hard to break
    When they DO break they can regroup with your other mutants…
    Who are also hard to break, have three flamers and a beast leading them.

    add all that together and join them with an aspiring champ and you’ve got a pretty nifty little unit.

    But thats all on paper, its worth noting that if they are ever caught out of a transport…they will melt away, and if people survive their charge (which they inevitably will) then they will melt fast in melee also. You’ll very quickly be down to the aspiring champ and the mutant boss.

    And realistically the squad is still no real threat to vehicles, so until there is a reliable way to pop them….

    I guess what i’m saying is that any list someone generates as ‘a cool list’ doesnt need to be moderated by changes unless it makes all other lists pointless, otherwise you’ll be stuck nerfing your whole codex down into the ground πŸ˜›

    Its a good codex, you’ve done good work! I’d focus on what you want to add to it for now and worry about toning things down if anyone tests it and can say conclusively that something is too good.

  30. BoBliness says:

    Here’s my inspiration for the merc lord….though its pretty out there, so you may not wish to even consider it, it probably takes the codex more in a fandex direction than a legit codex so i’ll let you be the judge…

    The mercenary lord is all about the money. That lets him hire kroot. which implies that he has contact with Tau.
    Tau use extensive implant work…

    From the codex:tau –
    “Further, less violent contact with the Tau was made by Rogue Traders and merchants exploring the darkness of the Eastern Fringes. Far from the guiding light of the astronomican, warp travel so far in the galactic east was treacherous and word of such contact was slow to filter back to the administratum. Members of the Water caste had established trade agreements with the Imperial worlds on the frontier and exchanges of goods and technology were common.”

    So why not allow him to get some of the hard-wired items from codex tau? Multi-tracker and target lock jump to mind. That, combined with relentless (and maybe two weapons…since that ties in with the tau items) would actually make him a pretty decent fella to have along, you could sling him in a squad or a truck and get an extra two missile launcher shots a turn (or plasma cannons!! I’m not giving up on the double plasma just for how he’d look) at a different target.
    You’d have to alter the wording, actually include the altered wargear in your codex not refer to the tau one (since it talks about suits) but it would certainly be a different character.
    I’d stop short of offering him a battlesuit and probably no drones either, its pretty unlikely the tau would sell them and he’d be unlikely to fit in any suit he stole, but I find it conceivable that the Tau would be willing to sell their lower-tech gear to mercenaries and would be able to adapt it to a human consitution. From their point of view the more humans using their tech…the better, easier to get influence and control them…especially hard-wired tech!

    So then ideally i’d be able to put together a force led by a nasty mercenary/pirate lord who’s got a lascannon over either shoulder and bits of alien technology grafted into him, one red eye (yarrick or yriel style) and parts of his body converted using bits from the necron kits and probably orc kits lol.

    Maybe this doesnt appeal to you, but that guy would be awesome πŸ™‚

  31. chaosgerbil says:

    The kind of uy you’re talking about is sounding more and more like a special character. I don’t have codex Tau but maybe I could look at some options in army builder. A Tau hybrid lord isn’t quite the direction I was looking at going in… but why don’t you write this guy up? I’ll give him a tweak and stick him in as a special character.

  32. BoBliness says:

    Can do chief!

  33. BoBliness says:

    I’ve mailed you (chaosgerbil@yahoo.com) a copy of my attempt at rules and fluff for the fellow I’m thinking of.
    I now like the background and concept so much I’m trying to work out how hard it would be to model him lol.

    I apologise in advance for the fact that the rules and such probably seem over-the-top for him, I think they’ll work ok on the tabletop though.

    I really want 40K to have more shooty characters, there are just so many monstrous CC characters and what….two or three shooty ones? Maybe more if you count the ‘tank upgrade’ characters (dull)

  34. chaosgerbil says:

    I’m still working on some edits, but I’ll get back to you for sure.

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